The Centrality of Christian Education

From 10 ways to destroy the imagination of your child, a satire by Anthony Esselin. Well, welcome to our bedroom. That was an awkward way to start this. Welcome back to Brightheart, everybody. We are, I said that because we have... We moved homeward. We're experiencing. We're experimenting with a new recording. setting to see if we might be able to do this after the kids are in bed to make it a little bit easier on the schedule and make sure that we stay consistent with getting this podcast release. So anyway, welcome back here. I think we're on episode six, and we are, of course, continuing to walk through the rooms of the house in this first season of Brighthearth. And in each room, we're basically asking what lost art of homemaking needs to be recovered. Here, Lexi's shifting so she can look at me. So we're both leaning against the wall, like looking at the opposite wall about of each other. Hey, babe. Hi. So we are continuing in a living room. Last episode, we talked about the necessity of beauty. And we talked about art, architecture, the recovery of, the recovery of intergenerational work, I think, is good. For some of the feedback from the episode, I think something that came up a couple times in conversing with some of you on Facebook and Twitter. Twitter was just how important it is to view this work of recovering art and beauty as intergenerational.

For some of the feedback from the episode, I think something that came up a couple times in conversing with some of you on Facebook and Twitter. Twitter was just how important it is to view this work of recovering art and beauty as intergenerational. Oh, interesting. You might get a few paintings in your lifetime. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's cool. Hand them down to your kids and, you know, and what would be glorious as if in three generations, they were still passing some of those on and collecting us. Yeah, that's cool. A survey legacy. So we're continuing today, and I think we're going to do this episode in one more in the living room. Today we're going to talk about education as an art and science and discipline of homemaking. And then in the next episode, Lord willing, we will talk about things like discipleship, training your children, and catechism, which is, you know, education is a subset of discipleship, as we'll talk about. So today, more about education, homeschooling, school, that sort of thing. And the next week, discipleship and formation. So, Lexi, why don't you tell everybody, just give them kind of like a quick overview of what is our experience in education? Um, and, um, yeah, some of the places where these ideas have been formed. So I grew up mostly homeschooled. Um, you were public school. Yep, K through 14. Yeah. I went back to public school. I was in and out sometimes, um, but I did go back full time when I was in 10th grade so that I could go to college. So I didn't even have a really normal

Yep, K through 14. Yeah. I went back to public school. I was in and out sometimes, um, but I did go back full time when I was in 10th grade so that I could go to college. So I didn't even have a really normal high school experience, I guess, but, um, I kind of always knew I wanted to homeschool. I think you were always in agreement with that, but I don't necessarily know if you would say you knew why or if you cared if everyone else did it. Yeah, that has definitely been something developed as we had kids. Yeah. So, um, so we, you actually asked me to start teaching Ari to read when he was four and I did not want to teach him to read that early, but I did and he did really well. So, um, we homeschooled for four years. I think it was that same year I started teaching him. And it was really funny because, because my New Year's resolution that year was to start nothing new. Like I was doing way too much outside the house women's ministry wise. And so that year I was like, I'm not going to start anything new. Anyways, you got a hold of Douglas Wilson's a case for classical Christian education and you read it. I was also anti-classical education at that point. I was in school. And school, yes, and school. I was hardcore Charlotte Masoner, which we'll talk about. And you rolled over in bed one night and you were like, I think we should start a school. Yeah, I remember the moment. I remember exactly. It was in

and school. I was hardcore Charlotte Masoner, which we'll talk about. And you rolled over in bed one night and you were like, I think we should start a school. Yeah, I remember the moment. I remember exactly. It was in our Ogden house. Yes. I finished Pastor Wilson's book. And I was like, we're going to start a classical Christian school. And I said nope. Yeah, I think you literally said nope. So gentle and quiet spirit, submissive. But no. So that I think you have literally asked me to read three books in my entire life and that is one of the three books. And yeah. So, and we'll talk about it as we go. Because she reads books on her own, you guys like. Yeah. Yeah. I usually don't have to ask her, but, but there happened a few times where I was like, no, you need to read this book. Yeah. And it wasn't, that was ingest. I was not like trying to exert my will. But I was just like, you've read zero books on education. And now you're telling me this is what we're doing. Okay. To be fair, it was not zero books. It was very humbling for me me to go through this whole process, which we will talk about. So. Yeah. So since. then. That was years. That was years ago. Yeah. And we launched a classical Christian school out of our church in the academic year 2021, 2022. So this year as we record this, we're just rounding the final bend of year one of our school. I did lead a co-op at our church for one year. And then the year after

Christian education is not optional. But that it's also a team effort. Yeah. And that you gain more, I think one of the biggest things we'd want you to take away, whether you homeschool, co-op, cottage school, classical school, classical school, Charlotte Mason, private school, whatever you do with your Christian education, that you really lean into the benefit of having other people on your team. Yeah. That was the one thing I wanted to say was I don't necessarily know if our readers, are readers, our listeners need to be convinced of Christian education. Yeah. But just realizing it is a vocation God has given you. You don't have the option. Government school is not the option. Right. So we're going to talk, let's talk, we're going to talk about that first, actually. So let's talk about what are the options for, obviously, obviously everybody should agree that you need to educate your children, right? That your children should be able to read and think, well. You want your children to be able to read. well, think well, write well, speak well, to be able to go out and do their, you know, pursue whatever vocational calling the Lord gives them, whether in the economic sphere or in the home. And we're going to also talk about education, not just being to get kids a good job. But we've got a lot of options in that range.

whatever vocational calling the Lord gives them, whether in the economic sphere or in the home. And we're going to also talk about education, not just being to get kids a good job. But we've got a lot of options in that range. What is permissible, in our view, for a Christian, in most situations. situations and excluding all of the, but what about the, you know, single mom in New York City who works as a waitress and children are, you know, babysat by a ninja turtle in the day? Like, just in a normal, let's say, two parents situation, hopefully husbands providing, wives say it to be home. We don't want the outliers to set the norms. We're talking about the normative situation for Christians. Titus two, the mother's pursuing being an oiko desperation. about a worker at home. Husband is providing for his family so that he doesn't deny the faith and prove worse than an unbeliever. Yeah. So given that, what are the permissible and impermissible in our view methods of education? Okay, well, I would just say, like, the father is responsible for seeing that his children are brought up in the Pidea and Neutheia of the Lord. So you might want to explain those two concepts a little bit more. Yeah. But I feel like understanding those allows you to see. see that you have lots of options for what tools as a father you can employ, be it your

Yeah. But I feel like understanding those allows you to see. see that you have lots of options for what tools as a father you can employ, be it your wife, using living books or using hopefully not dead boxed curriculum. But just using really quality homeschool material or you might have a Christian tutor that you hire or you might do some online Christian academies or you might open a school or you might open a cottage school or you might start a co-op. So it just depends on what like the Lord is calling your family to specifically, but I think if it falls, this is how I've always thought about it at least. If it falls outside of the realm of Pidea and Nuthesia, it's a no-go. Yeah, Pidea and Newthesia are two Greek words that are used by the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 6 verse 4. And in that chapter, it's one of Paul's household codes where he's going through the duties of the various people in the household. You know, husbands do this, wives do this, children do this. And he tells fathers, raise your children up, or don't provoke your children to wrath, but raise them up in the Pidea and Newthesia of the Lord. And it's translated variously, discipline and instruction or some other set of words. Pidea and Newthesia together really give you the idea, particularly if you see how the word Pidea is used in literature, even outside of the New Testament during this period. It should, you know, it's a very thick word.

Pidea is used in literature, even outside of the New Testament during this period. It should, you know, it's a very thick word. It means like the total inculturated. of an adult citizen of Rome, for example. Yeah. Anybody, well, any male, any male in Rome could be called upon to serve in political office. It's a little bit different from how we do it here in the U.S., but because of that, any, every male needed to be educated. So they were educated. They understood every single thing that they were interacting with was educating them for the kingdom of Rome. Yes. So as a Christian, we should be understanding everything our child is interacting with is, is educating them for God's kingdom, and just like the Roman is going to be an active participant in the Roman culture, the Christian is going to be an active participant in the Christian church. Yes. So Pidea, if you take that concept of raising a male citizen of Rome, in the Pidae of Rome, and then you see how Paul uses it. He says, raise your children. And he doesn't just say boys, by the way. He says, your children, which would have included sons and daughters, in the Pidea and Newthesia. And Newthesia is a very like instructive, didactic word. So it's like a teaching, teaching kind of word in the Pidaean, Newthesia of the Lord Jesus Christ. So now he's talking about the total formation of a child. Some of the other principles that are important to understand in this conversation,

Yeah, St. Brendan's. Dot Academy, I think is what it is. But he, this author, or this classical educator is what it was, it was Hugh of St. Victor. Victor, I don't need to look it up. Hugh of St. Victor said that in the process of education, our children are like, where the student is like a wax, soft wax, and the teacher himself is like a seal. So you can imagine the ring of a nobleman sealing a letter to say this is from the king. He pushes that ring into the softwax. wax and he imprints himself on it is the idea. This is a very biblical idea. So what we would say, if you study, we're not going to like show all, I've preached whole sermons on this, you can see them on St. Brennan's that academy. I preach a sermon that's up there on education. We would say, and we would argue from good and necessary consequence of scripture, that right now public school in the vast majority of cases is an impermissible method, the government school for a Christian to educate their child. Including charter schools because they're government schools. Yeah, any government school. People always say, oh, it's a Christian charter school. You're like, no, it can't be. It literally can't be. By law, it cannot teach. You know, there was a school that popped up in our area and it was like, we're a Christian charter school. They wouldn't let you teach Bible because you hadn't been to seminary. It was pretty funny. They had to teach it. They had to teach the Bible as literature, basically. So they couldn't teach us in the internet word of God.

It was pretty funny. They had to teach it. They had to teach the Bible as literature, basically. So they couldn't teach us in the internet word of God. The reality is all of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ, Christ Jesus, according to Colossians. The fear of God is the beginning of not just wisdom in the Proverbs, but the fear of God is also the beginning of knowledge. So that means that if you are to properly know anything, you must fear the Lord. To both know anything, it's the beginning of knowledge. It's also the beginning of wisdom, which is knowing what to do about knowledge, right? Not just knowing things, but what to do about knowing things. So if you really understand a biblical doctrine of things like epistemology, how you know things, of, you know, the realities of inculturation and the enculturation process of a teacher teaching a student, you should conclude that it would not be permissible for a Christian parent to say, yeah, my plan for educating my child, like, let's say, 30 to 40 hours a week, my plan is to send them, yeah, like how many, nine months a year, 30 to 40 hours a week, to send them to a non-Christian who, by law, is not. allowed to teach them about the lordship of Christ as it relates to any point of knowledge on the curriculum. And not only that, but in a place that is increasingly filled with some of the vilest sexual perversions. Violence even. It's very unsafe to send kids to public schools nowadays.

allowed to teach them about the lordship of Christ as it relates to any point of knowledge on the curriculum. And not only that, but in a place that is increasingly filled with some of the vilest sexual perversions. Violence even. It's very unsafe to send kids to public schools nowadays. We recently had an elder at our church. He was driving some kids to a church event, I think, that were like family friends or something. And the family friends had brought. brought along one of their friends, maybe like a junior high age student. And they were talking about how how many furries there were in this school. And Dan was like, oh, I just gave it away. It was Dan. I'll bleep that out. He was like, what's a furry? And they were like, you've never heard of a furry. He's like, no. And they said, don't Google it. That was the first thing. Because a furry is somebody who identifies as an animal or they dress up as an animal character and it has sexual ramifications too. It's utterly vile. You're talking about in high schools and junior highs where in classes of 30 students, you might have 10 of them that identify as bisexual or lesbian or gay. So we would argue, and we haven't even argued yet. We've just given you an overview. And we won't in this episode. But we would argue that public school, the government schools, are not permissible methods for Christians to deploy in educating their children. And so we would

And we won't in this episode. But we would argue that public school, the government schools, are not permissible methods for Christians to deploy in educating their children. And so we would argue that the principle that everybody should agree on in the church is that children should be given a Christian education by Christian teachers who are worthy of emulation and whom you would want to say to your child become like this person. Yeah. Not just receive their teaching. So, but what that means is that we are for, Lexi and I, I mean, we're for Christian education in homeschools, Christian education in cottage schools, which are like, if you know, never heard of that. It's like two days a week in a formal classroom, three days a week in a home school type environment sort of thing. Christian private schools. Christian with Charlotte Mason, Christian with classical, Christian with, like we're for Christian education, and we have our convictions about the particulars that we would want to argue to somebody to agree with us. But at the end of the day, and we tell this to our church all the time, if you are a Christian homeschooler who does some slightly different model than we do. We are for you, and we absolutely don't want to form in our church, for example, a cult of kids who go to St. Brendan's and then kids who are homeschool. We're all on the same page. The principal is Christian education. Okay, so let's talk now

Charlotte Mason stuff too. I guess when I hear the word classical, I more think of, we're just recovering our Christian heritage of education. We're not just this one type of classical that's like rope memorization, trivium. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, sure. We're not, and St. Brennan's, the school to be school isn't necessarily like straight down the line. No. We wouldn't agree necessarily with the idea of the classical trivium, grammar, logic, and rhetoric being applied to child development stages. That's more of a modern idea. Dorothy Sayers in 1940 in her lost tools of learning essay or, you know, speech. She wasn't, she, that's really not a historic, she makes some claims that are actually historically inaccurate in that, in that speech. So we're for the trivium as subjects and as, you know, training tools, but we wouldn't like want to say children in the grammar stage are going to memorize a ton of stuff and then children. So we're not necessarily, we're kind of like a hybrid between or even I would say like going a little bit further back in the classical pedagogy than so much of the modern classical approach. But Charlotte Mason is a Christian, so she is a part of that Christian heritage that we have. Definitely, definitely. So that's why there is a divide in the Charlotte Mason and classical world that it's not possible for them to be the same, but I'm sorry. And we want them to get along. It is. And they get along in our school. So for me,

that's why there is a divide in the Charlotte Mason and classical world that it's not possible for them to be the same, but I'm sorry. And we want them to get along. It is. And they get along in our school. So for me, that was life changing for everything. I remember reading, this is kind of connected. I was reading Elizabeth Elliott's essay on femininity in Piper and Grudem's book on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, where she was quoting Lewis, who said that we adhere to our God-given sex, male and female, not because it's practical, but because it's a God-given revelation. And when I realized that, it dawned in me how efficiency-minded I was being in every area, but coupling that was Charlotte Mason and understanding that children are born persons. It totally, it changed everything about how I was parenting, I think. And I think Ira was maybe one or a little baby when that, when I read that. So I think that's really huge as understanding they are born with a God-given personality, God-given gifts, understand that as you're educating them. You're not first trying to just pour stuff into them. Yeah. God did make them a certain person. Yeah. When we say children are persons, we mean that they're not like, they're not an unformed substance that you pass every child

we mean that they're not like, they're not an unformed substance that you pass every child through the exact same process and it will stamp on them the exact same thing. Correct. Children are not another way that I've heard it put, actually by James K.A. Smith, who's totally a flaming liberal that you should not listen to. But years ago, he wrote a book that I read and it was actually there was some help of stuff in it. Again, I would not recommend him. But he basically was talking about how children are not brains on a stick. They're not USB drives. This is another way you could think about this. But you just, you plug a USB drive in, you drag and drop some files of education onto them. Yeah. No. Education is the education of persons. Yeah. It's training. It's formation. It's formation. It's what we're actually trying to do in education. And Christian education, certainly, is not just to impart a certain body of knowledge, though that is part of it. We're actually trying to make virtuous Christians. And cultivate. affections and, you know, ordering their affections. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. What does that mean? Ordering their affections. I just think it means like giving them a love for God's world, like almost recovering Christian humanism in a way, like loving it for the sake of it instead of loving it to tear it apart

I just think it means like giving them a love for God's world, like almost recovering Christian humanism in a way, like loving it for the sake of it instead of loving it to tear it apart and analyze it. Or loving it to get money from it. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So this is another one of the things I learned from Child Mason was synthetic knowledge versus analytical knowledge. Like, I want my child to be interacting. My child is learning when he is walking up and observing the chickens and the chicken coop. I don't have to sit down and read him a book. So in some ways, as a homeschool mom, that lessens your load in a way because you're understanding, like, God can use all of these things to teach my child. Yeah. And it's actually really amazing when you, when you then go to sit down and to actually formally study a topic, how much they have learned and observed. Yeah. What is, those two synthetic knowledge and you mentioned those. What do those mean? And I'm not, you don't have to like web webster dictionary. Karen Glass has a really, really good book about this. I can't remember what it's called. It's actually funny because she's, I think in that book, if I remember correctly, she's arguing that Charlotte Mason cannot be classical. But she had, she has a fabulous section on there, in there about synthetic versus analytical. Like when you are tearing a part of flower, like every part of a flower. If you're just studying it and it's small

So let's, that that's really good because children or persons is such an important principle. And and it's not, again, this is something that arises from the scriptures is if you understand a biblical anthropology, biblical doctrine of persons of man, you will conclude these sort of. of things already. You can't even, um, who was a horseman. I mean, he has these disgusting quotes on how we need to view people as machines. The machine must take the place of the human. The human must die essentially. And he is like who so much of our American education system is built on. And, and I don't even understand how a Christian could then argue to be pro public education because they don't even believe in the people that they're saying they're educating. Like, yeah, so Christian anthropology is a big deal. The other thing I was going to say is living books. Yep. Yeah. So living books over textbooks. Textbooks are not necessarily bad. I probably use, have used in our schooling more textbooks than a lot of Charlotte Mason people would be okay with. But the end goal should never be a textbook. Right. And I even remember when we were using Logos, which was, it was good in some ways. I always wanted to do Amble side. but you were a little sketch with Ambleside for a while. So we tried some Logos, but when when I did start incorporating more of the Charlotte Mason Ambleside books and you heard me reading them,

but you were a little sketch with Ambleside for a while. So we tried some Logos, but when when I did start incorporating more of the Charlotte Mason Ambleside books and you heard me reading them, you were like, this is what it is? Yeah. This is way better than I ever imagined it could be. Yep. So, and it's really hard. I get, I understand that we have different personalities and ask somebody who is teaching multiple students full time. I understand that you really do have to pick curriculums that play to your strengths, especially if you're in hard seasons. I've homeschooled on bed rest before. I've had multiple newborns. I've homeschooled through moves. Different kids with different strengths. Correct. Like we've had, we, you know, we have one boy that's like very academically gifted, early reader, especially for a boy. We have another boy who's like much more classic boy. Yeah. Not as much, he's not an early reader. So before we move on, what is a living book? You said that phrase, we didn't tell us what that means. What is a living book? I would say that it's written by somebody who's actually very passionate about the subject they're writing about. A lot of the time, too, what's characteristic of Mason's books, I'd say probably before high school, is they're telling you information in the setting of a story instead of like, let's sit down and learn about all of the spiders today. And we're just going to list all the facts and we're going to have one picture, you know, like a typical encyclopedia picture. A living book would then do an entire story about the different spiders.

one picture, you know, like a typical encyclopedia picture. A living book would then do an entire story about the different spiders. and what their different characteristics are and the characteristics will play into the story and the plot and all that stuff. So two examples that I give you to like help you wrap your head around the difference here. The difference between a modern geometry textbook and Euclid's geometry is the difference between it. And especially in something like geometry, you're probably going to use a curriculum that has more textbook elements. But another example maybe even would be, you know, in our school we would like instead of our children to read a textbook on World War II. or the history of the 20th century where an author is supposedly in a textbook. And I say supposedly, boiling down the brute facts, taking fact units from all these other sources and putting them in an unbiased guide to this period. It's farce because it's made by a human. It is not unbiased. In fact, it's very biased. Textbooks are extraordinarily biased. Rather, what we would have our students do is they will read. Winston Churchill's memoirs of the Second World War. That's what I was going to say is a lot. So we've got, you know, Winston Churchill giving you his as a key actor in the actual events. He's giving you his account of the Second World War. But as we read that, we're teaching them, this is not an unbiased account. Churchill, he plays fast and loose with some of the facts to make himself look good. He glosses over some of the...

Churchill, he plays fast and loose with some of the facts to make himself look good. He glosses over some of the... And they're learning even in that as they start to understand that. They're also learning. So along with that, we would pair it with a book like Buchanan's book on the Unnecessary. war. So then you're getting another picture of Churchill and of FDR and of some of the events that were happening in that time. So the goal isn't that any one book is going to give them the unbiased, clinical, definitive facts about the events. It's that, A, we want them to be interested in the events through the people. They're human stories. And then we want them to be able to critically engage with these resources and ask questions of the text like, okay, who is writing this? What agenda might they have? And you, what you figure out as you do that is you actually figure out, A, how to be interested in God's world and the story he's writing in history, but you also figure out how to think critically and how to see through arguments and understand trajectories. And there's so much that's happening. One more thing, and then I'm going to stop because I know you have stuff to say too, but I would say that one thing that you figure out that we would say is a very important. principle of education, whether you're homeschooling, cottage school, home, public, private school, not public, would be that, and it goes along with living books. Because children

We want them to be interested in the material. In the book, Norms and Nobility, which is a fabulous book on education, if you can get your hands on it. He talks about how scholarly thinking is being able to connect across different subjects. So something you might be reading in science might make you think of something else in history that you're connecting or you're finally like a light bulb goes off. It's, those are the sort of things that you can't, you can't test for on a standardized test. No. Some of our testing is like, tell me everything you know about, you know, the, the, whatever, this Greek fable that you heard. Yeah. And then as a parent whose kids are in the school now, like I go, I go listen to their reviews from, from Mrs. Sanders. And it's like, what did IRA say about this? And he's narrating the allegory of the cave. It was crazy. There were Mormons involved. There are no Mormons in the Allegory of the Cave. He was connecting all sorts of things. And at his age, great, we don't care that he got six, you know, that he got some facts wrong. He was connecting things in his mind in this crazy Ira way. He was listening to Plato, you guys. He was listening to Plato, you know. So I think this is another principle that we could mention. And let's talk about this. Twaddle, not patronizing. your kids in education, not talking down to them. Talk to us about that.

Twaddle, not patronizing. your kids in education, not talking down to them. Talk to us about that. Yeah, I just think most people don't, they're not talking to their kids on a regular basis because they want, they're kind of pacifying the time instead of looking for ways to actively engage their children. And this is a little bit easier sometimes when you do have one or two kids to be actively engaging them, but obviously don't, well, I have very fussy standards for books. I almost died when we got to. the Hardy boys. Did you really? I was like, I really love Ari. You can read this, but this is twaddle. I disagree. The Hardy Boys is Twaddle. No, I know. For the listener. Yeah, there are certain things that are like, okay, this is quintessential boyhood. You have to read this. It's not the best of the best, but because he does read things like Mark Twain on a regular basis. He reads the Swiss family Robbins. Yeah, he has lots of stuff that he loves. I will let the Hardy boys slide. Oh, I'm so offended right now, you guys. I grew up. read voraciously as a child. So like I read all the Hardy Boys. I read everything I get my hands on. I had like the most AR points in the entire school. It was ridiculous. I've just noticed that as we've given our kids quality music, I notice it so much with music. They cannot stand, although I read the Discover Screamo last week, which was bad. Oh, yeah. But they cannot stand crap. Music. They know the difference.

They cannot stand, although I read the Discover Screamo last week, which was bad. Oh, yeah. But they cannot stand crap. Music. They know the difference. Ari was like, this music is bad. Can you turn on some classical? The other day, I can't remember. And honestly, he was wrong. It was like some bluegrass or folks. It was actually just a, it was still a good genre of real music. It wasn't like 50 cents. Just pop. But he's like kind of a snob about music now. But the same thing with books. Like you just, your palette, I don't know. It's just cultivated and it's primed for quality. And so you can just be more efficient then with your education in a way because you're not having to like unlearned sponge bobby. square pants. Maybe we could draw back to this principle again of saying, if you understand what a child is, what a human being is and what they're made to do, which think about this, human being was made for God. They were made to be partakers of the divine nature, as Peter says. So one thing you can take to the bank is that you should not talk down to your children. Yeah. You shouldn't be giving them like little kiddie versions of everything. Well, think about like we believe that our children are actual heirs alongside of us. And so like the kings and the queens throughout history from a very young nursery age, they were being raised up given a very unique education as future royalty that other members in society did not get.

Well, think about like we believe that our children are actual heirs alongside of us. And so like the kings and the queens throughout history from a very young nursery age, they were being raised up given a very unique education as future royalty that other members in society did not get. And that's what we should be doing. When we're interacting with our child, we should be understanding like this is literally, this is a spiritual being who can interact with ideas at very young ages. At high levels. At very high levels. And so that should be changing the way we're talking. to them, what we're reading to them, what they're listening to, what they're memorizing, that they can memorize things, that they can sit through church, like all of it. We give them really high quality materials. We let them interact with them. At their age-appropriate ways. At their age-appropriate ways, yeah. And we don't, like, this is, we've mentioned narration. This is so key. And not distilling. We're not teaching to a test. This is one of the big problems with modern pedagogy is that because it does not treat children as persons, it treats them as cogs. or unformed substances, Tabula Rasa, John Locke, Jean-Jacques, Jean-Jacques Rousseau. These are some of the foundational thinkers that formed modern education. I mean, think of the ways that the philosophies of these men. Jean-Jacques Rousseau was very much influenced by Lockhean ideas of the blank slate, that children are like blank slates that society writes on, that people are all good morally,

anything. Yeah. They can go pursue their interests as a person. You've given them the tools to continue to tools. Well, because you think about it. I mean, we know the statistics about like the average person that graduates high school reads like maybe 0.5 books a year. Yeah. They're not educating themselves anymore. They're done. They're checking out on Netflix every single night. They're not thinking anymore. They're just, they're just receiving passively information from other people. The other thing you should add to that list is that they can rest well because Missy Winkler always said that on her Sabbath weeks from homeschool, which she would, I think she'd homeschool six weeks and to take the seventh off. And she always said she knew if she was schooling well because they were interested humans on their rest. They weren't asking for movies all the time. Yeah. And I don't mean that as a holistic everything. I mean like that those four categories capture a lot of the goals of education, not all. Because we're also trying to make people who are wise who are, who know how to, they know what they're for. So they know like, I'm a human, not. a machine that aren't super like into books, but they're very wise because they know how to apply God's word. Yeah. To lots of things. And even those people, we want them to be able to read well, think well, right, well, speak well, speak well. Because that's going to be, you know, words. One of the things that separates people from animals is that we're made in the image of the Logos, the God

well, think well, right, well, speak well, speak well. Because that's going to be, you know, words. One of the things that separates people from animals is that we're made in the image of the Logos, the God man, the word. Yeah. And we're able to use words. And we think we're all to receive verbal revelation from God and know it. And we're all to be people of the book. We're all to be people who, you know, interact with words in that way. So I think that's really important understanding narration, giving them living books. In terms of principle, too, one of the things that that you talked about, I think it was really interesting that is important as well is thinking of your children are being taught to rule well, right? To be, uh, through Much of the history of Christian education in the world, too, this wasn't just Christian education. But if you study the history of classical education in the Christian West, most of it was reserved for the clergy and the nobility. And it wasn't until the Protestant Reformation that led to some early Christian theologians who then worked in the philosophy of education, who opened up and said, said, well, because of the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, this Protestant, very Protestant correction of some of the Roman Catholic errors, we would say that surround a vocation

Protestant correction of some of the Roman Catholic errors, we would say that surround a vocation and laity clergy distinctions. They said, no, all children should be educated. They should all be able to read, they should all be able to think in these ways. And so it was such a staunch part of Protestant reformed doctrine that when the Puritans got to America, before the founding in the 1600s, the Puritans, they passed the first public education, basically, the first universal community education law. It was called the Old Deluder Satan Act. And it was basically worded so that Satan can't deceive our children. All of them should be educated to the point where they can read the scriptures for themselves. So it's like all these things are deeply theological and the liberals and the pagans have hijacked them from us and convinced us that that unless the pagan secular state educates our children, nobody will or could. And it's like, no, we came up with this stuff. And we're teaching them all of that to circle back. We're teaching them in the stream of the proverbs, which was wisdom for kings, young men to grow up to rule, Solomon's sons, to be royalty in Israel. We want to teach our children so that all of them are, again, like even reaching back to that Roman idea of the Pidea, that any Roman male land-owning male could be a political ruler.

are, again, like even reaching back to that Roman idea of the Pidea, that any Roman male land-owning male could be a political ruler. He could sit in the Senate. Even our daughters, too, because. Yeah, we want all of our children to be able to step into that work, that kingly work and that queenly work. I'm pretty convinced most of the reason that lots of women leave the home to go get a job is because it's easier. Because they haven't been taught any sort of like thorough discipline in terms of work. Or like, I think about this all this. time in the Iliad when one of the husbands is coming back from war and he's like meeting his baby for the first time and he's about to leave and he knows he's probably going to die. And his wife is like, what do we do? And he just says like, you man your post, I man mine, and the world will keep going. Yeah. That has helped so many times. And it's because I read a book and God sparked this living idea in my head. And it allowed me to maintain my post and to be steadfast and to not give up and not flee the home. You connected it to a bunch of others. You make connections. Why don't we, why do we sum some things up with? Okay. Okay. Finishing the sentence, you have succeeded in an education if, blank. And I'll give you an example. I think you've succeeded in education in the home if your children grow up to be the type of person

They're probably going to hire 50 people, like they're probably going to start their own thing, you know. know, they'll be a great employee and a great employer. Yeah, that's true. So you've succeeded, I think, if you make someone who looks out at the world and they say, wow, God has made this huge wild world. And he's called us to take dominion and tame it and cultivate it. And so there's a lot of work to be done. I could turn a profit anywhere. I think you've also succeeded in educating your children if they know how to tackle new bodies of knowledge or skills that they know nothing about yet. and they're not scared of them, of the mess. So important. If they can go, man, I don't know anything about medicine. 2020, all of a sudden, medicine seems to be really important. Let's figure this out. Lexi's now laid down completely horizontally. This is like great. She's slowly going to see. She's like, it's 840. I'm not sure if podcasting is my forte after 7. This is so funny. This is awesome. You guys can't see it, so I have to beat your eyes. All my friends know me are like, yeah, not surprised at all. 840 while it's late for her. Um, you've succeeded at, let me, let me circle back, explain a little bit what I mean by interesting, because one of the things Dan and I, Pastor Dan and I, and he's on the board of St. Brennan's as well, we talk about a lot with, as we have discussed in board meetings like educational decisions and things like that in the school, we're like, will this make these students when they grow up be a more interesting person to get a beer with?

interesting, because one of the things Dan and I, Pastor Dan and I, and he's on the board of St. Brennan's as well, we talk about a lot with, as we have discussed in board meetings like educational decisions and things like that in the school, we're like, will this make these students when they grow up be a more interesting person to get a beer with? Because I mean, it's like, it's one of those little heuristic tests that you can run. If someone would not be an interesting person. to converse with, it probably means they're not trained well. I don't care if they're an introvert or an extrovert. Yeah. Are they, like, if you are interested in the world that God made and you should be if you're a Christian, then you will end up being an interesting person. Because you'll be able to be like, I was thinking the other day and I read this. I was looking at Beatles or I was looking at whatever. What's that proverb you always quote about it's to God's glory to. Oh, yeah. Conceal a matter into a king's glory to reveal it. It's one of my favorite proverbs, and I can't remember the reference. That's what I always think of when I think of. raising interested humans. He says it's the, I sometimes get the wisdom glory. It's the, it's the glory of God to conceal a thing. It's the wisdom of kings to search it out. And it might be it's the wisdom of God to conceal the glory of kings to search it out. But it's like, God has made this intricate world. Think about this. Sorry. God made a world where people were meant to figure out that if you melted sand and got silica out of it, you could make chips and end up making a computer with it. And no one feels. figured that out for like thousands of years, but God knew it was there the whole time.

God made a world where people were meant to figure out that if you melted sand and got silica out of it, you could make chips and end up making a computer with it. And no one feels. figured that out for like thousands of years, but God knew it was there the whole time. And then some king, with wisdom, figured it out. Like the whole world is full of that stuff. Yeah, this is why population is a myth. Yes. Yeah, like overpopulation. It's garbage. Yeah, someone's going to figure out how to desalinate seawater and someone's going to figure out fusion energy and then we'll have like unlimited sun-like energy. Someone will figure, it's just like, come on. I think part of why we cannot, we're boring people is because we haven't, we are like, three generations removed from a true Christian worldview. And once you start digging back into the past in older literature, you see it everywhere. Like you can't unsee the Christian worldview connections the authors are making. And once you see that, it's addictive. And you want to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper down the rabbit holes to where you're like me and you're just sitting in piles of books and you're like having to reconcile the fact that I just won't finish it all. And I feel this is insatiable. Yep. I think we've succeeded in education if our children could give us really good recommendations of a fictional story to read to a six-year-old that would also be interesting to a 50-year-old. Yeah. Yeah. I think we've succeeded in education if our children would never buy one of those signs at Hobby Lobby that says eat, pray love or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we've succeeded in education if our children would never buy one of those signs at Hobby Lobby that says eat, pray love or whatever. I think we've succeeded in education if our children understand that it is that obedience is better than sacrifice. Like there are so many of these things. You need to start, we're going to start landing the plane because Lexi's literally horizontal right now. But I think it's important that you start asking these sorts of questions about education so that you can reverse engineer the methodology. Yeah. To not produce mere efficiency and pragmatism. And so you can evaluate curriculum and books when you're looking at them in problem solving and troubleshooting. Is this a living book? So summing it up, Christian education is the principal. We should all agree on our children should have Christian education from Christians that we would want them to become like. Yeah, because not all Christian schools are the same. Not all Christian schools, not all homeschooling curriculum. Obviously, one podcast episode isn't going to get you to like figure it all out. What we're really trying to do if you're a young married couple and you don't have kids yet or you have young kids or you're just trying to figure this out. We want you to think of the education. of your children as one of the great adventures that you get to go down where you are going

So, and that helps us keep doing this. So thanks for, thanks for jumping in again with us at Bright Harth. And we hope that the Lord blesses you and yours in your household as you pursue godly Christian, fruitful, productive homes. We'll see you next time.

We'll see you next time.