Covenant Succession: Children & Worship (Part II)

It was a matter of principle. Sunday is more than just another day. Youth sports leagues are great, but they're not sacred. Sunday is. Again, I do not believe that there is a legalistic requirement not to play any games on a Sunday, nor do I believe that the policemen, firemen, or airline mechanic who goes in to work on Sunday is out of the will of God. I do, however, think that there is a huge difference between someone whose job requires working on Sunday in a soccer league that just doesn't care. Quoted from the ever-loving truth can faith thrive in a post-Christian culture by Votti T. Baccombe, Jr. The Kings Hall podcast exists to make self-ruled men. who rule well and win. Well, welcome back to the Kings Hall podcast. Kings Hall podcast. We are going through a series right now on Covenant Children, and this is part two in Covenant Children in Worship. But first, I would like to introduce my two co-hosts. We have Eric Con. Say hello, sir. A.K.A. LeBroy Jenkins. Yes, sir. I am ready to roll here on this podcast. Start right out the gate. Dance face. starting right out the gate. Make a Dan make disappointed faces. Can you imagine if we had video on this podcast? It would be, hey, people, donate. We'll get video. Donate. Donate for Kings Hall. Email Dan's face. And email Dan and then you can see Dan. I don't know if I'm going to make it that

starting right out the gate. Make a Dan make disappointed faces. Can you imagine if we had video on this podcast? It would be, hey, people, donate. We'll get video. Donate. Donate for Kings Hall. Email Dan's face. And email Dan and then you can see Dan. I don't know if I'm going to make it that long. The disappointment. His headphones are off the way on. I've swung from firing Eric to firing yourself. Just firing yourself. Yep. Oh, excellent. Brian. Give it your best shot at an intro. Hey, good listeners. It's good to be back with you. Look, it's been hectic around here. Thank you. It's been pretty hectic. We've all been, like, tossed to the winds, I feel like, the last few weeks. Yeah. And just going real hard, but we're glad to be back in the Kings Hall. It's always a pleasure, gentlemen, to sit down with you to talk about important things. And hopefully you guys enjoy it as well. Hopefully, you're edified, but, man, covenant succession. So big. Covenant succession. I also want, if I could, I just want to give a quick shout out. Yeah. To everybody who came to county before country. Yeah. We saw a lot of people. We did. In Chop Chop Chop shirts. We did. We saw a lot of Brian's music shirts. A lot of Hard Man podcast. So, yep, thank you for all the supporters. It was great to meet a lot of you. Yes. And I even went there actually just to get Brian's to sign my t-shirt. And I refuse. And he refused. No, it was the sweetest, the sweetest little, like, 11-year-old girl came up to me and handed me a scrap of paper and a crayon and said,

And I even went there actually just to get Brian's to sign my t-shirt. And I refuse. And he refused. No, it was the sweetest, the sweetest little, like, 11-year-old girl came up to me and handed me a scrap of paper and a crayon and said, Mr. Mr. Silvitt, can, can you sign this piece of paper for me? And it was the most conflicted moment of my life because it was the adorable little girl. And then I was like, you are wildly overestimating the importance of the person you are standing in front of. So I, I did. So now you have to sign my T-shirt. But I won't sign Eric's T-shirt. Dang it. Yeah. I'm just excited to see you on the Twitter. When this episode is released, your enemies come out and say the self-important bright. Yeah, I am. again, giving out autographs to young girls. I am extremely self-important. Actually, it's one of my best qualities. That's one of your worst. I think that's what you made. Anyway, so in our last episode, we only got through two of the five theses that we have on this episode, and so we needed to split it up into a part two. The first one was, children are one of the most important members of the body of Christ. And the second was, children are and children are and should. should be valued by Christian culture, more than any other culture. That's all we got through. Those are some weighty things, though. They are. So today, we have to get through three points. We can do it. Okay, here they are.

They are. So today, we have to get through three points. We can do it. Okay, here they are. The modern American church doesn't have the tools for winning the hearts of, keeping, or making converts of their children. That's a strong statement. We'll have a lot to say about that. Here for it. Number four, a robust, regulative, principled, and historical, liturgy is the only vehicle that can reliably accomplish the discipleship of children into adult members. Seems like Brian Sovey wrote that one. Yeah, I didn't. There's a lot of big words in there. And I used them without any concept of if they should be used or not. Dan, that was a brilliant sense. The only problem, no m-dashes, no independent clauses linked together with a series of questionable punctuation, but otherwise I agree. It is a run-on, though. So number five. children should be instructed by their fathers through participation in Sunday corporate worship and family worship. So that's where we're going today are those three things. I'm excited to talk about them because especially with point number four, I read it and I'm like, wow, that is, no, number three. That is very strongly worded. Yeah. And so I'm very excited to get into this. So let's talk about it. Point number three, or thesis number three, the modern American church doesn't have the tools for winning the hearts of, keeping, or making converts of their children. Do you guys agree with that statement?

this up earlier. And the statistics, this is according to churchleaders.com, you can see other outlets, Barner and others. There's some variation in how you count the data. Yeah. But they say that 70% or more of youth stop attending church after the graduation of high school. Wow. These are children of members. 70%. Wild. Yeah. So I think that the portion of the statement, the thesis that's the most controversial, isn't the winning the hearts of or keeping. It's the making converts of their children. I think that's going to be the point where people are like, well, hold on. Because according to my church, we have X number of baptisms, X number of decisions for Christ. Right. That's how a lot of the megachurches in the megachurch model measure the health of their church is by convert and baptisms. Well, when I do that inventory of that 80, 90%, their apostates, again, 80 or 90% of those apostates were baptized in youth group. 80 or 90% of them came forward in some kind of altar call scenario at youth camp or on a Sunday morning youth service or, you know, most of them professed faith in Christ at some point and yet fell away, became apostate, you know, deny Christ. And I hope that many of them return. Many of them are still living. You know, we're not that old. So it's not like I have no hope for any of them. I don't want to communicate that at all. And I also don't want to communicate that all of their

Many of them are still living. You know, we're not that old. So it's not like I have no hope for any of them. I don't want to communicate that at all. And I also don't want to communicate that all of their parents were idiots or anything like that. Many of their parents were earnest Christians. And particularly when I think about the generation before my generation, the reason those kids were there in the youth group was because the parents were Christians. And they were somehow valued. Yeah, they wanted their kids to be Christians. They wanted them to profess the faith. They wanted them to hold fast, wanted them to be godly and mature and disciples. And yet something failed. And I like that you said, they don't have the tools for doing this. Because the intention was there in a lot of these, the intention was there. And then they were handed a certain set of tools and practices that were supposed to result in, disciples, mature Christian adults out of this church pipeline. And yet, it massively failed. And so that tells me that there is probably something in the methodology. There's probably something in the tools that they're using that, are faulty. Yeah, that was going to be the question that I asked is, is what's wrong with the tools? What are they lacking? And as you were talking about youth group, I mean, I'm thinking about my experiences in high school with, you know, we're basically Mountain Dew and video games. You know, you begin with a round of would you rather. And then there's some shallow teaching. And again, you play video games or watch veggie tails and have a little dodgeball tournament, whatever. And

You know, you begin with a round of would you rather. And then there's some shallow teaching. And again, you play video games or watch veggie tails and have a little dodgeball tournament, whatever. And surprisingly, people weren't kept. But as I'm asking about the tools, so I I hope you guys will answer that. I was also thinking about Proverbs. Train up a child in the way you should go and he will not depart from it. If we have 70% of kids leaving the church, they're actually doing what they were trained to do. Yeah. The question is, what was that? And again, Dan, back to the question, what's wrong with the tools? What tools does is the church have? And what are they lacking? Yeah, I don't want to belabor this point just to, I will answer your question. But it's easy when you're a generation removed. to despise and to hate your parents or your Christian forefathers because of the wrong tools that were used. And I'll say what those, I think what those tools are. Yeah. But it's easy to turn around and despise them and to actually not honor your father and mother, which in a cruel twist of fate and ironically, will produce the exact same fruit in the lives of your own children. They will despise you because you're training them how to teach or how to treat their elders in those generational sins could be passed on. So just just be aware of that roots of bitterness in your heart and things like that. But yeah, honor your father

or how to treat their elders in those generational sins could be passed on. So just just be aware of that roots of bitterness in your heart and things like that. But yeah, honor your father or mother, even where they even because a lot of, so in this topic, a lot of our fathers and mothers in that youth group environment that I'm describing, again, many of them had good intentions. And they were disciples to do something and told that it would work. And it did not. But they acted in good faith, many of them, in their leaders, in their pastors, and their shepherds, which is why teachers are always judged with greater strictness, because teachers have the responsibility. They're not just ordering their homes. They're also ordering thousands of homes, hundreds of homes, dozens of homes. And so if the fruit proves out that there was folly in the foundations, there's responsibility, certainly for every household. There's a greater measure of responsibility on the pastors and the leaders and the shepherd. So I think that was a good point. But Yeah, absolutely. So some of the tools, we've talked about this in past episodes, but it was like 30 episodes ago. Yeah. I think episode two was on the Seeker Sensitive movement. Wasn't it on like decision? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like within the first five, we did several that were really related to this. Yeah, yeah. So one principle that I would like to appeal to is that the walls of the church are permeable. So either out or in, the walls are permeable. And you can see this throughout history with different influences, like during,

theologically rigorous resources on everything from biblical theology to history to blue-collar family discipleship, the type of library and resources that could make the kind of men and women I just described grounded in the rich heritage of the reformed faith. We'd like to highlight one resource in particular, their family worship Bible guide that presents rich devotional thoughts on all 1,189 chapters of the Bible, including searching questions to promote conversation and to help you in leading your family in such a way as to say with Joshua, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Tap the link in the description of this episode. to pick one up today. In our day, I think recently, we've seen that permeability, instead of the salt and light going out of the church and influencing the culture, it has been the culture permeating inside the church. And so some of this has led to to functionally, not emotionally. So I want to be careful with that. Functionally hating your children. And the reason I say that is because you have to ask the question. and we answered it, I think, in the last episode. So who are the people of God? Who should be gathered in worship of the Holy and Living God? Who is in the congregation? Does God hear the worship of the children? Yes.

Does God hear the worship of the children? Yes. Yeah, it's believers in their children. Believers in their children. Yeah. And what has happened, essentially, is that the model and the tools that the church has adopted has been more of a conference style, more of a, I mean, Ted, TED talks are more modern, but you understand what I'm saying with this example is that with a TED talk, a church is like treated as a TED talk, you have your talk, not even a sermon, you have your coffee shop, you have child care, it's like a nice date. And so it's been more of a convenience and experience model. You know, you're going to church for an experience, which targets felt needs, and it becomes emotionally charged. And so you can't have this emotionally charged. experience with felt needs and have it actually succeed in keeping your kids. Because it becomes centric on the person having the experience. It becomes centered on the person having this feeling of closeness with God of being built up, whatever the target is. But it actually doesn't deal with the core, which is calling out sin. That's one of the aims of preaching is to address sin and to lead people to repentance, to lead people to the throne of mercy and grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ and to build a people together into the body of Christ.

That's one of the aims of preaching is to address sin and to lead people to repentance, to lead people to the throne of mercy and grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ and to build a people together into the body of Christ. But instead, we treat it like independent persons having independent experiences. That's one of the tools. I've got another one. So let's talk about that for a second. Yeah, absolutely. I think when you think about the worship of God's people, you're continually saying several things at the same time about who you are and what you're doing and what you're for. The corporate worship of the people of God, when it's properly was properly engaged in with believers in their children, the company of the saints, the people who are in this thing, the preacher is saying constantly, this is who we are, what God has said we are, what we're for, here's how to live, we're a city on a hill, lit up with good works, you're in, you're the people. Yeah. So go and be the people. Yeah. So when you tell the whole congregation that and the children are present, you're going with the grain of Christ's ministry when said, bring the infants to him, bring the children to him, that he could bless them and instruct them. You're saying you're in. You're a part of this company. When you take them all out and you put them in age segregated silos and you say it's because we can instruct them more appropriately to their age or

You're saying you're in. You're a part of this company. When you take them all out and you put them in age segregated silos and you say it's because we can instruct them more appropriately to their age or whatever, you're saying something. You're saying, in my opinion, you're functionally saying, you're not in. This isn't you. You're not a part of that company of saints. There's lots of there's lots of problems as well in the content and all the other things. But I think that's yeah, I think that that that leans in well to another emphasis. I think that you get in the tools that have been mishandled. And that's church as a an educational experience. Yeah, church is a lecture. So that's what you're talking about in a way. You're going to segregate into age appropriate sort of groups. And there is a place for that. We do that on Sunday mornings in Catechism as Sunday school classes before worship. And so I guess before we move into that, maybe we've defined this in the past episode, but I think it would be good to redefine it. What is Sunday worship? What's it for? Yeah, what is it? Like, what is it for? Why would we lead with the idea that removing children from corporate Sunday worship is a bad thing? What is it that we're removing them from? We're removing them from the corporate worship of the people of God, whereby the people of God come before their God to remember and renew the

encompassing all those elements. Yeah, I think it's helpful, too, to remember the word for liturgy, which is tied to, we would tie it to covenant renewal worship, which as Brian has been describing. Liturgy means the work of the people. And so really what you're doing in a robust liturgy, everybody has one, some are just shallow, but in a robust liturgy, you're teaching and training, you're teaching and training people how to live as Christians, not only in those moments, but in all of life. Yeah. So confession, communion, being sent out, consecrated, and then sent out into the world. It gives you a pattern for all of life. And when we do covenant renewal worship, that liturgy is, it requires active participations by the people in the congregation. The difference is, everything that Dan has described, a lecture or, you know, praise, or listening to, you know, entertainment. The problem is that's all passive. You just sit there and watch other people do the work when, in fact, you're the one supposed to be doing the work. This is also why we put an emphasis on congregational singing. Yes. Because the people are supposed to be the ones worshipping, not just people up front and you watch them do it. Yeah, we're not coming participation. We're not coming to receive, we've said this before, I say this all time to our church. Our gathered worship isn't a situation where the people of God come to receive spiritual, goods and services dispensed by a religious class of professionals who dispense those

Our gathered worship isn't a situation where the people of God come to receive spiritual, goods and services dispensed by a religious class of professionals who dispense those goods and services in exchange for your tithe. So that's a totally antithetical model to the biblical picture. Biblical picture, yes, pastors and elders are facilitating the right worship of God and guiding the people as shepherds, but they're guiding them towards the worship of their God, which is a thing we do together. We're all doing the company of the saints. And when you reduce, when you take any, many of the errors we've made in worship come from taking one element of what the saints do when they gather for worship on the Lord's Day and making it all consuming. So the sermon can become the whole thing. Or in some liturgies, actually, the opposite error happens. The communion becomes the whole thing. In some errors, we have evangelism becomes the whole thing. Do all, should all three of those things happen in the world? Yes. I mean, I, every week I'm talking to saints, but within the service, even the shape of the service itself, there's going to be an invitation to repent of your sin, trust in the Lord Jesus, and be saved every single week. It's not going to be an altar call, but every week that's there. There's evangelism. There's biblical instruction. There's praise. There's communion. No, no single element of that liturgical experience dominates and crowds out all the

but every week that's there. There's evangelism. There's biblical instruction. There's praise. There's communion. No, no single element of that liturgical experience dominates and crowds out all the others. Yeah, one of the ways that that happens in a liturgy that actually is, this is going to be our next thesis. But is that it's very clear that there are people that are in and there are people that are not in. They are out of the covenant. You know, even in inviting people to the table, we don't practice closed communion. We practice close communion, meaning you don't have to be a member and it's just closed to everybody else. Yeah, of our local church. You have to be a member of the big C church. Yeah. You know, you have to be a Christian. And we make that very clear. Give a biblical admonition. Yeah, that's correct that you are invited if you are a Christian and even giving certain elements like being baptized and things like that. And so even in that, we make a distinction. This isn't seeker sensitive as in like, well, yeah, just come. Don't worry about it. You know, come later. There are very much so elements that these are covenant people and these are not covenant people. Now, one of the things I wanted to back up for just a moment, even though we're going to get into it in our next thesis, is you guys both have used the term covenant renewal. And so one of the things that I think people might, that haven't heard this term are familiar with the concept, the theology or philosophy, is that they might think, well, hold on, you're saying that we have to renew the covenant. What if we

people might, that haven't heard this term are familiar with the concept, the theology or philosophy, is that they might think, well, hold on, you're saying that we have to renew the covenant. What if we don't go to church? Are we like out of the covenant? Do I have to keep going to keep the covenant going? Is it like the Aztecs, sacrificing slaves to keep the sun coming up? Sure, sure. Or even like there's certain theologies that would say like if you don't continue participating in the covenant promises, then you're out of the covenant. You have to keep the covenant. In this. way by continuing to participate in that way. I mean, is that true? Is that not true? Like, what the heck does that mean? Yeah. When I say remember and renew the covenant of our salvation, what I'm basically saying is that we're coming together because we're a forgetful people to look to and remember what it is that God has done in Christ to save us, which is the covenant. He has shed his blood. It's a covenant signed in the blood of Christ. He's fulfilled the conditions of the covenant. He's fulfilled the law. He's given us his spirit. He's put new hearts in us. We are in, we are in his covenant. He's done it. Okay. And then he calls us as members of the covenant to do things to participate in and continue our life within the covenant. It's not that we do to get in. We're in by his saving grace. And then as his people, his covenant people, we're a royal priesthood, a holy nation, people for his

collapse all of salvation into justification. Justification is a momentary declaration of God whereby you're declared righteous, right? Second Corinthians 521, declared righteous. He's put all of your sins away from you as far as the east is from the west. But salvation is much bigger than justification. You can think of justification like a door, and then you go in and there's this whole life that you're sanctification, where he's making you holy. And so when we say renew, I don't mean get justified again or anything of that sword. No, that's happened. You know, Christ died once. By faith. Yeah, you were regenerate once. You can never be unregenerate. It's, it's a one-time thing God did. When I say renew, I mean that we are going in and we are participating actively within the life of the covenant people. And that is a renewing thing. It renews us. It renews our understanding. It renews our faith in the promises. It feeds us. There's actual grace that God is dispensing moment by moment, including through these forms of worship, the logical ordering of this idea of covenant renewal worship, which basically includes the normal features of a reformed historic liturgy in a certain order. It's taken from the ordering of the covenantal practice of the Old Testament, where there's a call to worship. We don't come uncalled. God calls us to worship. And then there is a confession of sin. We confess our sin. You could think of the animal, the people, the priest confessing sin over

uncalled. God calls us to worship. And then there is a confession of sin. We confess our sin. You could think of the animal, the people, the priest confessing sin over the animal. And then there is a consecration by the word of God, the priestly sword, would cut up the sacrifice, and it would burn the sacrifice, which would then ascend us to smoke, a food offering before God. God would eat. It's symbolic of God eating with the worshipper. And you can communing with God over this table. And then you're sent out to the kingdom. You've come to the temple. You've come to the priestly work. And then you're sent out with this commission to go and live life as a member of the kingdom wherever the Lord sends you. So you see this ordering of worship in the old covenant. And the New Testament elements are all there and logically cohere within that order as well. You see these elements featured within historic reformed liturgies. And basically what you're doing is you're just preaching even with the liturgy that God is consistent throughout the testaments in his worship. Yeah. And I would just say as a side note, if people want to read more about that, Uri-Brito talked about that as well when we had him on, but Jeff Myers book, Covenant. The Lord's Service. Yeah. Yeah, the Lord's Service, Jeff Myers. He's a PCA pastor. Yep, that's right, St. Louis. You know, so one of the things that the modern American church, especially in like the Seeker sensitive movement, the megachurch movement, or even just kind of like shallow

Yep, that's right, St. Louis. You know, so one of the things that the modern American church, especially in like the Seeker sensitive movement, the megachurch movement, or even just kind of like shallow Christianity, misses with not thinking in the terms of covenants. is that just like in the old covenant, the new covenant has correlating blessings and has correlating curses. And so, Eric, I was wondering if you maybe could talk to where the modern church would actually hamper their people from not taking the nature of the covenant curses and the covenant blessings seriously and maybe how that's played out. Yeah, that's a great question, Dan. This is maybe like, I have no idea what what I want? Yeah. I'm not sure. It's not on the notes. Whatever it is, it's not right on a teleprompter. I don't know what that is. I've never seen that. Do it live. I can, I'll write it and we'll do it live. It isn't on the notes. I'm just curious what, like, what line you were thinking on that. Yeah. So you have different cursos. Say, say, like, when Paul is talking, he'll give like a whole cluster of sins, right? And he'll say, these people don't inherit the kingdom of God. Yeah. These people are going to be damned. Like if adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yeah, I see what you're saying. That is a curse. Yeah.

are going to be damned. Like if adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yeah, I see what you're saying. That is a curse. Yeah. So what happens when you have churches that then refuse to preach on things as simple as adultery, making a covenant with your eyes. You know, things like that. Just the basics. Preaching against, for example, like gossip and malice and bitterness. Man who practiced homosexuality. Yeah. Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying now. So a lot of this, too, I think it goes back to something that was popular in Acts 29. with Matt Chandler, right? There's this story of a pastor who was telling a story of a rose and sexual immorality. Yeah. And it was like a woman is the rose. And this pastor was saying, you know, you're just plucking the pedals off. Yeah. And, you know, you're giving yourself away to all these men. And then at the end, like, it's kind of filthy. And who would want that? And of course, Matt Chandler said, what, Jesus wants the rose. And we wouldn't say that that woman can't be redeemed and God isn't going to restore her. But there is also, even in that case, there's a reality where, you've done real curse work to yourself. And so I think there's just, there's not been a lot of preaching on just practical sin and how that shows up in the life of the body. One of the ones that I've always gone to, 1 Corinthians 6, is feminacy. It ties into the hard man podcast, so we've addressed it. But people are like, no, if feminacy doesn't, that's not something that would send you to hell. And you're like, actually, I have a passage for you. Actually, 1st Corinthians 6, 9, and 10.

It's not do this and live. It's you have been made to live and so do this. So walk in life. It's completely inverted. And the charge of legalism, what it does is it misses the grain of scripture. So even thinking about the covenant community aspect, think about how Moses could not lead the people into the land. Moses is like a picture of the law, the mosaic law. It took Joshua to lead them into the land. They crossed the Jordan to go into the land of Canaan and begin to do the work. the real work of the kingdom then began of displacing Canaanites and living in the land as covenant members, right? So there's a picture right there for us that it's not through keeping the law that we crossed the Jordan. We need Joshua, which is literally their same name as Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua. So we need Christ to do that. But once the people got in the land, did they stop living by the mosaic law? No, they were the people of God. So they lived by the law. And when they did that, when they lived within the land, Joshua had brought them to, that Yahweh had brought them to by grace. Sheer grace. These guys were like, took 10 minutes out of Egypt before they're grumbling against the living God and longing for slavery. Right? So these aren't like, they're just like us. These people are just like us. God, sheer grace brings them into the land. And then he sets before them. Moses set before them, the final, like, exhortation before they go in. Here are the blessings and the curses. People of God. You are the people of God. Therefore, live with God in the land.

Joshua had brought them to, that Yahweh had brought them to by grace. Sheer grace. These guys were like, took 10 minutes out of Egypt before they're grumbling against the living God and longing for slavery. Right? So these aren't like, they're just like us. These people are just like us. God, sheer grace brings them into the land. And then he sets before them. Moses set before them, the final, like, exhortation before they go in. Here are the blessings and the curses. People of God. You are the people of God. Therefore, live with God in the land. Worship him faithfully. Don't set up idols in the land. Don't sync with the local molex. Don't do all of that gay stuff. Don't get in. You know, you need a couple of Phineuses to grab the spear and start running people through when they're given into sexual immorality and worshipping demons. right. Live with God. And if you do, God is going to bless you because God has woven into the fabric of reality that when his people walk at peace with his law, when by grace and through faith, just like they did back then, by the way, when by grace and through faith, the people of God, obey God in the land that he's brought them to, he blesses them. And when they don't, there's curses. Right? We act like that reality is utterly removed. And bringing it back to children.

right. Live with God. And if you do, God is going to bless you because God has woven into the fabric of reality that when his people walk at peace with his law, when by grace and through faith, just like they did back then, by the way, when by grace and through faith, the people of God, obey God in the land that he's brought them to, he blesses them. And when they don't, there's curses. Right? We act like that reality is utterly removed. And bringing it back to children. This is what we're teaching our children when we give them an an antonomian, feelings-centered, constant evangelism-centered, Christian TED Talk, entertainment, and we don't disciple them that they are Christians and so live like Christians for the sake of God's blessing. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And so much of, like, go to Proverbs, one of the reasons I think, like, Jordan Peterson has been so popular among young people. Well, obviously, like Way says obviously. That's pretty good. And Michael Foster, too, for different reasons. Obviously, one Christian, one, maybe probably not. We don't know. But I would say this, they're both really good at giving very practical advice in a Proverbs-like way to young people. Think about what Proverbs the father is saying continually to his children. Hey, do you see that lazy guy? Do you like that? Do you want that? Do you want your fields to look like that? Don't do that. So you're finding just simple ways to teach object lessons to children in ways that are

And Michael Foster, too, for different reasons. Obviously, one Christian, one, maybe probably not. We don't know. But I would say this, they're both really good at giving very practical advice in a Proverbs-like way to young people. Think about what Proverbs the father is saying continually to his children. Hey, do you see that lazy guy? Do you like that? Do you want that? Do you want your fields to look like that? Don't do that. So you're finding just simple ways to teach object lessons to children in ways that are practical. We were talking about this morning chapel at St. Brennan's. Yeah. And the boy said, yeah, we love Pastor Dan's chapel messages. And I said, well, why? And Benjamin said, he goes, well, because Pastor Dan's always like, hey, don't do this. It's stupid. It'll ruin your life. All right, let's pray. And he's like, I understand it. It's very practical. And he said, I'll sit there and chew on it for the day and go, yeah, that's right. That is really dumb. Yeah, I do actually kind of want to do that sometimes. It is dumb. Yeah, don't reject authority. That's a dumb thing. So back to the curveball that I threw you about coming. Curses and blessings and things like that. What happens, I think we've seen. What happens when a church denies teaching and instructing children, hey, remind them, Deuteronomy 6. When you rise up, when you lie down, when you go on the way, when you eat, you know, when you see a monument, you know, what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to instruct the children. These are the works God has done. This is how he's blessed us. If we don't do,

No, no, no, you're fine. And I just want to hand wave that so people don't think like, well, duh, there's this big other thing. You know, they work together, but it really is the case that worship is so much more important than we practical, pragmatic moderns think it is. Because it doesn't, you don't see it doing anything. Right. Like, you have the big examples where it's like, hey, I used to do this thing, and I repented it, and I don't do it anymore. Praise God for that. But it's not like math. You know, where you're attending school and you're like, I used to not be able to do algebra. And now I can. Now I know what the letters are doing in there. I didn't know what the letters were doing. And then what was I supposed to do with that X in there and that Y? Yeah, now I know. It is. It's different. And worship, so the thing, the mistake that even people in our camp can make, though, is to too quickly talk about education and neglect the centrality of worship. Because actually, in the land, when you think about what it is, when you look at that picture from the Old Testament of the covenant people of God dwelling in the land with their God faithfully, at the center of it, like, yes, education highly important. but at the center of it is actually the worship, right? It's when the worship becomes polluted that the bad things happen. And of course, education has to serve and feed, but that's the key is that education even serves the worship. It's not the other way around. Education isn't in the center, and then worship is one of the peripheral things. It's the people of God are the temple, and out of the temple comes the water, right?

It's not the other way around. Education isn't in the center, and then worship is one of the peripheral things. It's the people of God are the temple, and out of the temple comes the water, right? And so there at the center is the worship of God, the people of God. So you can't. can't too quickly dismiss the importance of what God is doing covenantally when his people gather in his name on the Lord's Day and worship him. And when our children are present for that, when they're being brought up as members of this thing, instructed week in and week out in the worship of God, having the imprint of the word of God stamped on their hearts, seeing mom and dad confess their sin, coming to the table, all of these things, don't underestimate them just because it is an hour or two on Sunday, and education is, you know, six to eight hours, more days a week. Education's highly important, but it's so key, so key. Are we in the fourth thesis yet? Let's just do it. We've really overlapped at this point. Well, yeah, you have to compare in order to say, like, why is one thing bad, saying the other thing is good. So at number four, we'll just transition, and then I've got something I wanted to say. Okay. A robust, regulative, principled, and historical liturgy is the only vehicle that can reliably accomplish the discipleship of children into adult members. Another way to say that is, I'll say a robust, scripturally principled, and

liturgy is the only vehicle that can reliably accomplish the discipleship of children into adult members. Another way to say that is, I'll say a robust, scripturally principled, and historic Sunday corporate worship is the best vehicle. Yeah, it's the vehicle to accomplish discipleship of children into adult members. Can I ask a question? Yeah. I believe that's true. And I, you know, like in our church, I think that we're, we're living that out. But I've also been to churches with high liturgies who believe in covenant renewal, and their daughter is wearing a miniskirt in the front row. So is there like a, there's like a caveat here somewhere where you're saying, like, yes, if you thoroughly apply it, like, you have to thoroughly apply it once you leave. Yeah. Yeah. And a proper, historically reformed covenant renewal liturgy? will include a robust teaching of the law and the gospel. It will include a robust application of the text. The text will make significant contact with our lives. So the pastor, this is a key, I think, for pastors to remember. And there's a lot of pastors who listen to this. So maybe this will be helpful. Christendom Bible College offers a one-year certificate in the humanities for students who intend to pursue a degree or for students who prefer to begin their chosen occupations upon completion of our program.

helpful. Christendom Bible College offers a one-year certificate in the humanities for students who intend to pursue a degree or for students who prefer to begin their chosen occupations upon completion of our program. Older students who never attended college or who went to a college where the humanities were less robust will also find our program stimulating and suitable. Located, steps from the Ohio River and the town of New Richmond, we're unaccredited in order to remain free to teach as our biblically minded consciences demand. As servants of Christ, we won't wear the yoke of the woke of the woke. Instead, we stand on the shoulders of Christianity's giants, not to stew in nostalgia, but to see through the culture. wars fall for the glorious days of a Christendom still to be built. Our exceptional faculty are committed to the historic, biblical foundations of our faith. Come be a part of Christendom Bible College. Visit us on the web at Christendombibbiblicalcollege.org to learn more. While there, be sure to sign up for our email updates and receive your free three-chapter excerpt of our very own Dr. Frank J. Smith's new book, Race, Church, and Society. When you look at the command to know the state of your flocks, part of knowing the state of your flocks is knowing what kind of idle, what kind of like weeds they've been eating, what kind of dangers they have. Whoa, that sheep looks like it's been mauled by a coyote.

I don't know. I don't care if somebody in California or Texas or Idaho needs it. My people need it. Look, there's a lot of mini skirts showing up. And the ladies are doing their thing and going, hey, let me take you aside, young lady, and explain to you why you don't want to do that. It's bad for you, bad for my husband and my sons. The pastor needs to know is too. So a lot of it, though, really gets down into an aspect of pastoral ministry. that everything we teach, everything that we do in the service, I think the reason it works well in our church is because ultimately there's courageous pastors who will then take it and say, we're going to apply it to you, and you, and you, and me, and you, and you, and your wife, my, everybody is being held accountable in a very loving, edifying way. It's kind of like Richard Baxter and the reformed pastor. He said, all the preaching I ever did, it never really came home to Roos until I counseled the people. I went in their homes. And I said, yeah, I see your son's not respecting you. Here's what you need to do about that. Yep. Yeah, it's the same way with like church government. So let's say we've got a lot of Baptists. Let's say you're a congregationalist church. Can that be a righteous model of church government? If you have godly people, absolutely. If you have godly leadership, absolutely. We have more of a Presbyterian model. Is that going to save you? No. The model will not save you. The literature. will not save you. If you have wicked men who are leading a godly liturgy, just like in the

godly leadership, absolutely. We have more of a Presbyterian model. Is that going to save you? No. The model will not save you. The literature. will not save you. If you have wicked men who are leading a godly liturgy, just like in the nation of Israel when Jesus arrived. Yeah. Like, hey, do as they do, or don't, don't do as they do, do as they say, don't do as they do when Jesus is addressing the Pharisees. Yeah. Because the model wasn't bad. That's right. Yeah, there have been lots of... The new covenant is a better model, but, but the old covenant wasn't bad. Oh, it wasn't bad. It was just fading away. I mean, and you can look at, you can look at this in the history of, like, Presbyterians. Presbyterian government won't save you. PCUSA. Yeah, look at all the gays. Look at it. They had a Presbytery. They had like gay ladies. They had church courts. They had... High liturgy. High liturgy. They had the hymnal. They had, they had preaching. They had all of it. What happened? The people were apostate. Yeah. People rejected their Lord. So you can't, you can't make, like, the tool is good, but one of the, one of the keys that we just have to remember, even in all this talk about building new Christendom, is that they who labor, labor in vain, unless the Lord builds the house. Okay, we need at the heart of this thing, the Lord to come in. Unless the Lord comes into the temple, it's just a tent or a building. Tabernacral. Unless the Shikina comes down. Like, there's a reason that the curse was Iqabad. The glory has

of this thing, the Lord to come in. Unless the Lord comes into the temple, it's just a tent or a building. Tabernacral. Unless the Shikina comes down. Like, there's a reason that the curse was Iqabad. The glory has departed. Iqabad, Israel. Your apostate. The glory's departed. The Lord's left. Your tent may be just as beautiful, but the Lord's not in it anymore. Your system's glorious, but the Lord's not in it. So that's why a lot of these things. People want a method. People want a GPS roadmap where they're like, they plug in the destination. Well, if I do this, then I do this, and I do this, and I do this, and I do this, everything will work out. It's like, not necessarily. That's not, you should do all of that. But at the heart of it, we also need people who are calling on their God to say, come and build. Yeah, this whole project is bottom up, right? Yes. It requires a people that actually love God and worship him, you know, and are righteous. So you could compare and contrast stories like in Nehemiah, for example, you have the people that are actually like they've repented and they want to build the walls of Jerusalem versus like Jeremiah. Both you have actually righteous leaders. But in Jeremiah, the story is way different because the people are actually, they hate God. And so it doesn't matter how good the preaching is. Yeah. The people don't want it. They, they don't want it. And so, uh, so one of the things that's really ironic. So let's say you have godly leaders, you have this robust historical liturgy. One of the things, one of the side effects that

they don't want it. And so, uh, so one of the things that's really ironic. So let's say you have godly leaders, you have this robust historical liturgy. One of the things, one of the side effects that you get is that you will actually have experiences. I mean, singing four part psalms Yeah. With one another is amazing. Yeah. Another thing is that you will actually have education. Yep. Because it's not just a sermon that carries all the weight either. It's actually quite the experience and quite the education weekend and week out. You're learning something every week, even if it's something as simple, like Eric said, as a pattern of life. The covenant renewal worship teaches you like, I've sinned. What must I do? Well, it's the same pattern. It's confession. It's hearing the truth of God. It's. Yeah, even all the tools. I think like the music that Brian's writing, we were talking about the YouTube. Brian, what's the name of the YouTube one you did in four parts with all of them together? Oh, yeah. I've done my soul. I great creator praise. I'm 104. And I've done when Zion's fortunes God restored Psalm 126. Yeah. So one of the five. fundamental things that we believe about anthropology is that media, including music, shapes the affections, desires, and the will of the human heart.

Yeah, no, you should hear our kids belting out crown him, crown him. Yeah. Crown him. Yeah. I mean, they are belting it out. There is, so the transition, there is no transition. They are in, they are in the congregation, worshiping God. I ask a little, little Winifred. Winifred, 16 months old. So, yeah, where is God? She's my heart. In my heart, she points at her heart. Are you baptized? Pats her head. I'm baptized. And so from the very beginning, she's, she's there. When we sing the doxology, she's in her high chair. at the table. Yeah. Praise God. Hands go up. She's seeing. She's imitating. She's learning. She's, she's figuring this out. It's worked into the grain of her soul, you know, from the very earliest days. And she's hearing this message over and over and over and over and over. You're in. This is who we are. This is what we're for. This is our God. Here's how to come to him by grace and through faith. And yeah, there's going to be a moment. Here's how to continue. It's going to be a moment when my kids are regenerate. And, you know, I pray for that. And with some of them. it will be probably fairly obvious with some of them, maybe less so, and I won't really know exactly when. But from the very beginning, they're being told, these are your people. This is your God. Serve him. And again, unless the Lord comes in, it's not going to, nothing's going to happen unless the Lord comes in.

And again, unless the Lord comes in, it's not going to, nothing's going to happen unless the Lord comes in. A robust regulatory principle in historic liturgy can't save your children. No. But when we say a robust regulatory principle in historic liturgy is the only vehicle that can reliably accomplish to discipleship of children into adult members, we're saying basically, that what you should do is situate yourself, your church, your family, firmly in the historic stream of the people of God. You should stand there. You should not move the old landmarks. You shouldn't try to reinvent things and say my father and mother were stupid. They didn't know those hymns, those stodgy things. Let's get rid of them. Let's reinvent worship according to a sociological, psychotherapeutic view. Let's figure this now. We've had a picture of that. That's why we're saying modern church doesn't have the tools. We've done that. We've already done that. So what we need to do instead is worship the living God, bring our children into it, and teach them to worship the living God. And that's why I think, you know, coming to the last point here, that this is such a key point. Children should be instructed by their fathers through participation in Sunday corporate worship and family worship. That's really at the heart here of this whole thesis, is that if we're going to have Christendom, if we want to build a new Christendom, we're going to need covenant succession because that's the work of many generations. So we're going to need vehicles. whereby the covenant can be passed on from generation to generation, where it can make contact through the generations. One of the normative means that God is appointed for that to happen isn't just through the conversion of the lost,

One of the normative means that God is appointed for that to happen isn't just through the conversion of the lost, but one of the primal means is through the discipleship and conversion of our children, discipleship of our children. And so if we really want to see new Christendom, we've really got to get this in this blue collar everyday sort of way. Fathers, do you want to build Christendom? Don't try to get. go do something, you know, impressive tomorrow necessarily. Instruct your children through corporate worship, through family worship, bring them in, teach them to be Christians, tell them they're in. It's just normal, normal stuff. And as we do that, instead of trying to reinvent it, every generation, I fully expect the Lord to bless. And for, we are not doomed with 80 or 90% apostasy or 70% apostasy generation generation. We're not. That's fruit of a bad tree. We're not doomed with that. People get so, I mean, people get so black-pilled on this stuff, I think. Let's go, I guess that's how it is. They all act like your children all have to go through some wild period of apostasy. Like, we do have to lose, well, maybe they'll come back when they're older. We have to adopt some kind of unbiblical, once saved, always saved, in the sense that if they just pray to prayer, they're in. Well, well, I know little Bobby grew up to marry, you know, a crack-ho, and he's, you know, dealing, dealing math. But, you know, he prayed the prayer. He's fine. We don't have to comfort ourselves with these lies when we just embrace the normative means of covenant succession.

But, you know, he prayed the prayer. He's fine. We don't have to comfort ourselves with these lies when we just embrace the normative means of covenant succession. Yeah, I think that's really huge. And I think the other thing, it goes back to the promises, right, that we're, you know, train up a child in the way you should go. Obviously, that's Proverbs. But we have an entire slew of promises that we base our parenting on. And then we go act in faith. And I think if we're doing that, and I think part of this is the key to it is if we're doing that and not living here, hypocritically that our children are going to see that. So one of the things I always tell people is, you know, pointing to David in the Psalms, he says, I will live with integrity in my house. Why my house? Because it's easy to go to church and put on a nice face. But then how do you treat your wife and your kids? So just make sure that as a function of worship, confess your sins to one another. Yeah. I try to make sure I, this will be surprising, but I regularly sin against my wife. And so one of the things I do is I, I, will repent to her in front of the children if they saw the sin. You know, maybe I was cross with my words or I just short-tempered or whatever. Repent. Let them see you repent. You're demanding and calling them to, you know, I'm sorry, please forgive me. I forgive you.

guys do for family worship? How often you do family worship? Like, what advice would you give for somebody who maybe has not been leading their family and family worship? How should they get started? I'll start with the most basic thing. I'll let Eric, you do family worship proper. I want to talk about something that's related that I think is very powerful as well. And that is shaping the average day. So that there are moments throughout the day. that are like micro family worship moments. Like, for example, I think there should be a time in the evening and our family does this, you know, we miss here and there. We have Psalms sing some nights or out late, whatever, we have young kids. Where we're doing Bible and praying and catechism. But one of the most powerful things I think is to make sure the life of my family is shaped around singing prayer and the things of God, right? So we're praying regularly in our home multiple times a day around meals. We're singing. multiple times a day. My school-aged children are at St. Brendan's where we begin the day with chapel, reading the Word of God, hearing it applied, singing together, and moving into our classes. So our goals should be even on a bigger level than just family worship should be for our families lived in life to have this shape. And what can encourage you, I think, in that is that, yeah, you're going to miss some evenings of family worship proper, right? You're going to miss some. It's going to happen.

lived in life to have this shape. And what can encourage you, I think, in that is that, yeah, you're going to miss some evenings of family worship proper, right? You're going to miss some. It's going to happen. Like we're human. We have full schedules. Young kids need to go to bed sometimes early and we're out late, whatever. But don't be disheartened. Look at the whole picture of your life and see that for a lot of us, we probably get more praying and singing done than we think if we fail to look at all those little moments of prayer before the day begins or lunch, table, dinner table, all those things. So I'd want to encourage fathers to not neglect those little moments and also be heartened that. that your family prayer life might be better than you think. Yeah, and one thing I'll say to add to that and then jump into kind of what we do for proper family worship is early on in the pietistic Christianity mainstream movement, one of the things, like John Piper had this thing where he was like, no Bible, no breakfast. And it was like, if you don't get up up and have 45 minutes to pray and read your Bible, you don't get to eat, you pig. You know, that was kind of the feel to it. And one of the things I realized in leading family worship, it would actually be better. I'm fully convinced of this. If you have 40 minutes in the morning, maybe you got up a little late, maybe you had a ton of things you had to do, feed the chickens, whatever, things get out of control. I would rather go and read the scriptures and pray with my

maybe you got up a little late, maybe you had a ton of things you had to do, feed the chickens, whatever, things get out of control. I would rather go and read the scriptures and pray with my family than do it by myself. It used to be the opposite. So there was like this idea that like praying with your family or reading the scriptures together as a family didn't count. Like it didn't count. That's not actual, quote unquote, quiet times. I'm giving scare quotes. So that said, I would say the importance of family worship can't be underestimated. Generally, what I tell people is, let's try to keep it simple. I think the biggest mistake guys make early on is you have this like 14-part service. You're wearing little kids out. They're not paying attention. Then you get really frustrated with them. We keep it very simple. So I use the Vanderbilt daily lectionary online. They've got day-by-day Bible readings that will take you, they're usually matched with each other. You can find them throughout the year every day. And they're also based on seasons if you follow the church calendar. So Pentecost, Advent, they will line up perfectly with those. And they're usually fairly, there's usually three fairly short readings. These are also the ones that I would use as a pastor for Sunday worship. Again, they fit the church calendar. And it means you're going to get something from the Old Testament, from the prophets, from the Gospels, and the New Testament epistles. So you get a pretty well-rounded piece of scripture. It's really easy to follow because even if you skip a day, it doesn't really matter.

Again, they fit the church calendar. And it means you're going to get something from the Old Testament, from the prophets, from the Gospels, and the New Testament epistles. So you get a pretty well-rounded piece of scripture. It's really easy to follow because even if you skip a day, it doesn't really matter. you just pick up right, whatever day it is. And what they usually do is they do a really good job where they will overlap. So you read something in the Old Testament about Pentecost, and then you'll read something in like Acts chapter 2. And it really helps you see, oh, wait, there's a connection here between what's going on. So that's really helpful. Use that tool. Pray with your family. Pray for your kids. And then sing, as Brian said. Make sure that, again, as a function of what we're doing in the the church service, take those things and use them. So for us, doxology, Psalm 134, everybody knows them. They're memorized. Yep. Let's make a habit. Maybe you start the family worship with one, and you end with the other. And again, we try to keep it pretty simple, pretty short, pray for one another. And that's, and that's it. Yeah. And I think that one of the keys that you mentioned is if you miss a day, just pick up. Yeah. Pick up. Pick up the next day. Don't, don't get on a big guilt. The habit is what's about.